Speaker 1  00:00
It. Our city manager's right there.

Unknown Speaker  01:42
We just hand out the manager jobs. Everybody gets a raise.

Unknown Speaker  01:48
Okay? We're getting a 20% raise. What?

Unknown Speaker  02:12
I gave everybody on planning and zoning, it's point percent raise

Unknown Speaker  02:15
from zero. You it. Thank you for coming

Speaker 2  02:31
greener. City Planning Commission to order regular meeting on Tuesday, February 17, 2025 do I have to say the address and stuff too? No, but

Unknown Speaker  02:47
probably just take

Unknown Speaker  02:48
roll call if we share Roll Call. Kim McFarlane,

Unknown Speaker  03:03
for all

Unknown Speaker  03:10
right and city are

Unknown Speaker  03:20
Oh. Julie Spadafora, David Wilson in the

Unknown Speaker  03:26
audience, do you need to count them, or

Unknown Speaker  03:28
I talk Yes.

Speaker 2  03:31
Well, I don't know if you need their name.

Speaker 1  03:35
No, but if you do present, just speak your name, who you are, where.

Speaker 2  03:38
Yeah. All right, so our Agenda Item number one is discussion general

Speaker 1  03:51
you know, I feel like cone knows more about it than me, but I'll lead with it. The General Plan is kind of a, it's kind of a something we fall back onto for when we're guiding our growth, sustainable growth, things that when developers come to town, they have an idea of what are being, who we want to be, and how we want to move forward. It was created in 2013 adopted in 2014 typically, you review them every five to 10 years. We have reviewed this one three years ago, we determined that there was no real changes that needed to be had other than the statistics were kind they're a little bit off as far as our growth and where we thought we were going to be. But a lot of the like transportation plans, the housing plans, all of those still that same direction we want to go. We haven't had a lot of housing, we haven't had a lot of transportation, that kind of thing. But it is good for every single one of the planning commission members to be to read it and then to know about

Unknown Speaker  05:02
it, I referred to our agenda plan when I wrote any project that we

Speaker 1  05:30
have, or any project that comes into town asks for that general plan, it's just a common thing. And then from that general plan, we pulled our vision out of it as well. So that's what, if you see those signs throughout the office, that's what our vision is. And the big portion of that is we promote prudent utilization of all all resources, open space, water and transportation.

Unknown Speaker  05:56
So we have a lot of that.

Unknown Speaker  06:01
So there

Unknown Speaker  06:08
were three addendums.

Speaker 1  06:12
I don't know if I know what he's talking about. Sorry. Go ahead. We can't

Unknown Speaker  06:16
find him for the general plan. Three addendums

Unknown Speaker  06:23
I asked Ryan about last week.

Speaker 3  06:34
I think you're right. There's a outside of that general plan.

Speaker 1  06:37
I think there's housing and transportation and annexation indices.

Speaker 2  06:42
So public participation in general plan, survey results, the housing plan and the emergency response,

Speaker 1  06:49
okay, yeah, I didn't I have not added those in. I'll make note, and I'll get those in.

Speaker 1  07:02
They should be included. Up good point. Like I said, I was talking to Connor earlier, most people just ask me a specific portion of the plan, and that's what I usually deal with. So I'll get those added in

Speaker 2  07:21
my state. Mistaken in thinking that there's been more houses built in the last years than there has in the last seven or eight

Speaker 1  07:29
probably by far? Yeah, I don't know the number, but I would say the last year has been heavy with the houses than my previous three years.

Speaker 2  07:38
Anyway, housing plan has significantly changed it potentially.

Unknown Speaker  07:45
So where did you want to go on this discussion?

Speaker 1  07:50
I think Kim and I both just agreed, first off, to have the planning commission review it. Once we reviewed it, we didn't know if you want to do a chapter a month, have everybody come forward. Read the whole thing. Come forward. Next Planning Commission, anything of that nature.

Unknown Speaker  08:14
There hasn't been many talks about it.

Speaker 4  08:17
There are some things in there that really should be updated.

Unknown Speaker  08:29
Some things that are in there that are outdated, yeah, so on

Speaker 5  08:37
your guys's request. I mean, you guys see things that need to be updated.

Speaker 1  08:54
Yeah, see this puts us in a good spot if we review this general plan and decide to go out and update the plan. June is coming up, where we can give you guys a budget to allow for someone to write the general plan. We start having those workshops. This gives us a good three, four months to get that and set, set in order. So it looks like there's seven chapters.

Speaker 2  09:22
So if we did two chapters a month between now and summer,

Unknown Speaker  09:37
question, academic, we wanted,

Speaker 1  09:44
could be useful for us to show what's outdated or what we want to be updated and then handed into them within the next couple months.

Speaker 5  10:02
Sure. Up my opinion,

Unknown Speaker  10:10
and it needs to be updated.

Unknown Speaker  10:14
My vote as

Unknown Speaker  10:15
far as City Council for everyone, but I would say,

Unknown Speaker  10:26
then maybe let's be a little bit more aggressive and do three chapters and

Speaker 2  10:36
submit For a new one or a budget in June to do a new

Unknown Speaker  10:43
one. It's a

Speaker 2  10:54
discussion, so we will come prepared to discuss the first three chapters, and then have it as an action to first a standing item to review the general plan, and second as an action item to request the budget from the City Council to develop a new general plan, provides the update, update the general plan, Anything else on that item that you want to

Speaker 1  11:42
discuss today? I have one thing to add, I guess, and I was hoping Todd would be here. We do rank pretty high as far as our general plan goes, so we're not that outdated or behind some like he said it was a carbon counties 1996 so I

Speaker 2  12:05
I don't disagree with that. I think between the industry the proposed Industrial Park for inland port and the Broadway project and some of the other things that we have going. I think that this should be updated before we or as we move along with those other project. No, that makes

Unknown Speaker  12:34
sense for

Speaker 1  12:43
doing that. Yeah, I'm in agreement. Okay?

Speaker 2  12:50
And then we're going to discuss any charting stations specifically not limited, but not limited to amenities. We discussed this before. We did not do a ordinance to require a minute.

Unknown Speaker  13:08
We did not so

Unknown Speaker  13:09
that is a discussion. We discussed.

Speaker 1  13:15
Yeah, it's only been a discussion item on our agendas. We have not made

Unknown Speaker  13:20
a plan yet. So

Speaker 1  13:28
in your packet there is a EV charging station. They're called Iona. Yeah,

Speaker 3  13:40
call me, charging stations.

Speaker 1  13:45
Yeah, we, we created it as a permitted use. It just wasn't, yeah, just in land, land use matrix. There's just a, it's a permitted use of electrical vehicle, charging station. There are no conditions, no set, anything like that, if I were to as far as things that we've seen in the city or the complaints that we've had these electric vehicle charging stations do not usually come with restrooms. They don't come with trash cans. They don't come with squeegees to wash your windows like a traditional gas station does, and we don't even require that of a traditional gas station. It's just that's what drives people to use their business more than others, and it's just pretty common. Yeah, and so I've included these Iona plans, since it's a permitted use, they could reach out to me. We walked through a couple sets of their plans. They ended up on this one. This is the one that I approved for building permit. The nice thing with this is, I believe it and captures everything that we want, as far as electrical vehicle charging stations go. Because not only do they have a building for like a lounge area, they'll have restrooms, they'll have vending they'll have shade for from the weather, whether it be a storm, sun, etc, that kind of thing, versus what we've seen is just them pop it into a parking lot, and we're hoping that they use the business that they're in, which isn't always the case, because they'll walk across streets go to restaurants. They're not patrons. Sometimes they're not patrons there. So they're just asking for restaurants and disrupting other people's businesses. Yeah, if I were to add this, if I was to make any changes, we can do it easily. I would say, set it up as a conditional use, and in the condition in the general review criteria, we would add make sure they have restrooms, and that's if it doesn't. I had the I had it memorized, but not need to look it up. Basically, if it's not a nuisance to neighboring properties, and without them having a restaurant, they're a nuisance to neighboring properties. I would say that'd be the easiest way to do it, instead of a permitted use. Have it a conditional use, and then through the general review, we add a restaurant, or we do a conditional use and we list out everything we want an electric vehicle charging station to have.

Speaker 2  16:18
Or can you do it approved with these conditions,

Unknown Speaker  16:22
yeah, you can do it that way too, because I think,

Speaker 1  16:32
okay, that being said, we don't have one specifically for gas stations.

Unknown Speaker  16:48
Are no impact fees or gas stations.

Unknown Speaker  16:55
They are one per one every two

Unknown Speaker  17:01
stalls, bumps, yeah.

Speaker 1  17:11
In fact, these EV stations, other than the apartment for loves, I've collected more impact fees off the EV charging stations than anything else,

Unknown Speaker  17:22
because you're charging that is too stalls.

Speaker 1  17:32
They're just even though they're like one is at the one of the hotels first choice in they have their hotel, but now they're adding more impact to our system by having these charging stations. So I still charge them impact fees for that. Same with the west winds, same with this location. Have I had more? No just those. This makes five EV chargers and six gas stations in our town.

Unknown Speaker  18:01
Stage, stations 10, yeah, should be

Speaker 1  18:09
five chargers on 44 I think we counted last week is like 37 and

Unknown Speaker  18:17
44 comes on. So this

Unknown Speaker  18:19
would be no this would be for but this would be 44

Speaker 3  18:31
only accesses off the main street.

Speaker 1  18:36
They are doing a study with UDOT to determine if something needs to change. I don't believe so,

Unknown Speaker  18:45
yeah, the left hand turn,

Unknown Speaker  18:48
yeah, into the property.

Unknown Speaker  18:55
Long Street, yeah, yeah. So they'll have that. They have to do that study with the udamp.

Speaker 2  19:06
So would we like more discussion on not on this plan already, but on ordinance or charging stations? I think after

Unknown Speaker  19:28
our last discussion,

Speaker 2  19:38
do you want to include gas stations in that same ordinance,

Speaker 1  19:45
we might as well, I feel like they naturally kind of create what we Know them want to be, but doesn't hurt.

Speaker 1  20:01
No, I wanted to. I wanted to, but we do have curve there. I'm still in conversations with them, so

Unknown Speaker  20:21
we can address that in an ordinance to require veteran sidewalk Sure.

Speaker 1  20:30
We had conversations, but I haven't said they need to do it. I was focused. I did and I was focused on curbside or sidewalk, but I was really focused on fencing, retention, drainage and just clean up with the entire corner of that block anyway,

Speaker 2  20:50
so, but yeah, so those so any new business or obstacles in is required to put in sidewalk correct.

Speaker 1  21:06
It is required. We have an ordinance for curb better sidewalk, but it can be waived by the city council if it's one home, and the reason for it is we don't have a good drainage system to push that water to. So if we don't, if we make them put curb, gutter, sidewalk into them, it's just going to flood their neighbors. So a lot of times it gets waived.

Speaker 2  21:28
That lot in particular, being on Main Street is the origin for the rest of that pages. And that's good.

Speaker 1  21:38
It is kind of the beginning, yeah, so I would think, well, it has curb and gutter, just doesn't

Unknown Speaker  21:45
have sidewalk. Yeah, and so for next month, we should start the process of doing a ordinance or EV charging stations and gas stations.

Speaker 1  22:15
Yeah, yeah. Just bring any recommendations you guys have. There is no other city that has this that I can find. Yeah, so it's still very new. We spoke with attorneys. We spoke with who do we speak from the state, governor's

Speaker 4  22:39
office, through Utah State and no other city in Utah,

Speaker 1  22:46
they actually reached out to us to speak to us about it, because of they have something that flags anything that says, EV chargers. And so they we when we spoke on a or two, three months ago. So then they wanted to speak with us about what we were going to be doing.

Speaker 4  23:02
So when Tesla came in and you guys were working with us, I used to work at Tesla, the supercharger team. Yeah, I worked energy, automotive and supercharger, if you guys want, I can reach out to them. I can get them to pull an ordinance from an existing city. Maybe that would be a great place to start. Yeah, yeah. One thing I was looking at is, this is the safety side of my mind is there's not a super close fire hydrant to this location. It's either down the block or across the street, and I don't know if you know

Speaker 1  23:42
there was within 500 feet. It's just at the library impossible to

Speaker 4  23:47
put them out safely. Yeah, I don't know about something. Look at an ordinance where, with these charter stations closer,

Speaker 2  23:59
make sense, something that we discussed in Public Lands Council with the big solar farms and putting in battery packs, is training over There, batteries was there recommended alternative fire suppression.

Speaker 4  24:26
Ion is it's once they're caught, they're just going to burn. So the actual go to nowadays is let it burn same structure and just evacuate.

Unknown Speaker  24:40
So there's not necessarily an alternative,

Speaker 4  24:43
not in last year, just soaking in vanilla gallons of water. And majority of the easy chargers, they either start from an accident or while charging. So when they overheat, they'll lend their off gas and then going to thermal runaway, and then, just

Unknown Speaker  25:07
so that is

Unknown Speaker  25:08
CO two suppression systems

Speaker 4  25:10
don't work and keep the Fire burning, but you're still super hot.

Speaker 4  25:21
Company that tow is a record or DVD, they actually have to segregate it and have, like, special places in the yard, so they're not going to be reading that for like, how many days it is, the little lithium ion batteries that you see every day, bombs, your tools, those go you can actually start those in salt water and that will be going on vehicles today. The

Speaker 2  25:53
reason I push on that is because my thought process is in this ordinance, if there is an alternative for fire suppression. That should be something that we are looking at.

Unknown Speaker  26:05
I mean, we can look more into

Unknown Speaker  26:06
it. Fire suppression

Speaker 4  26:13
at the factory, we did have a million gallons in it, and if batteries are being a runaway, it would get done. But charging stations, it depends on, I don't have the design in front of me. Is there battery storage on site? So then it's like the same ordinance for most electrical installations. If there's no bad for this one, at least,

Speaker 1  26:43
yeah, I guess it would be if there's a vehicle, or how many vehicles catch on fire, because the the building and grounds itself doesn't

Speaker 4  26:50
have it, yeah, just look at kind of like the space between the building of the vehicles. And then our kind of going to right now is, if we get one other charging station that's on fire, we'll get it to try and hook onto it, graduate from the charging station and

Unknown Speaker  27:06
just let it burn and keep everything else safe.

Speaker 4  27:14
The charging stations, like by themselves, standalone, without batteries or supporting infrastructure are pretty standard. Yeah, they're like, essentially the same thing as your solar inverter. If you have a solar they're just the opposite. So it would be the same exact fire suppression standards that if you have a solar system that you would not

Speaker 2  27:39
abide by. It's more than lithium. Yeah, that's the unique is whether it's the vehicle or stored store, storage facility, is what they're talking about on the other side of the county.

Speaker 6  27:54
Yeah. And all cars nowadays are going to be lithium,

Speaker 4  27:59
lithium ion for like 20 to 2016 to 2021, after that, lithium phosphate. Same, same dangers, though.

Unknown Speaker  28:10
So yeah, so if there's a fire suppression system or something,

Speaker 4  28:19
I just want to see what other cities are doing for, like, copy paste.

Speaker 1  28:24
Yeah, we're the best lawyer. That's what the best lawyers do. Okay?

Speaker 2  28:34
So we will have further upcoming discussion,

Speaker 1  28:39
yeah, and just so everybody knows, just bring what you want. I'll look into it, but try to do some, some of it on your own, as well being for Josh, maybe

Unknown Speaker  28:49
we call them Edward earlier, so

Speaker 2  28:58
correctly every time. Yeah,

Speaker 4  29:10
he's like everybody I know at Tesla got axed by the baby I over there so find out who still works there. Tesla has an app give those blueprints. Of all their chargers. So again, we can pull it up with almost all their wiring the same they're off switches

Unknown Speaker  29:36
I have so I can

Unknown Speaker  29:42
all I'll email her and you, and then you can,

Speaker 4  29:46
yeah, ask for the ordinance that he's in Phoenix, Arizona. You want to make sure it's the same as, similarly temperature, similar environmental conditions. Yeah, I was

Unknown Speaker  29:57
gonna say this Phoenix get negative 12.

Speaker 4  30:00
Phoenix is 20 degrees hotter than here on average at any given moment. Yeah, the cold is the Yeah, it depends if you have batteries. So there's the vehicle itself.

Unknown Speaker  30:21
Yeah, are they more susceptible to buyer?

Speaker 4  30:24
Cold temperatures, no catch fire on high heat, but the cold irregular voltage pattern, so the cold is going to drop the voltage really fast. And then when current is flowing, the voltage is going to spike irregularly with cold weather,

Speaker 2  30:44
cool so a lesson on EV batteries.

Speaker 2  30:56
Any other questions on her discussion on the two

Unknown Speaker  31:01
part of what incentives have to deal with the

Speaker 1  31:05
large soil? Yeah, I just included it all. Is there issues over with that area? No, not typically, no storm drainage beyond that, yeah, it all the water flows into that property, but they do have a retention pond at you can see this calculations for the 25 year one hour storm event coming off of Market Street. I know, I don't know why Google Maps says Market Street, but I guess Chow Hound West is Market Street.

Speaker 2  31:51
All right, on to number three discussion on Broadway and Main Street project. So we had, there was a presentation at city council meeting last week, and I asked David to put that on the agenda for this week.

Speaker 1  32:14
We also have Eric on here with doing another Broadway project. So kind of lump, summed it all together,

Speaker 2  32:21
all here, so part of the same or

Unknown Speaker  32:25
same, same but different, same boundaries, different scope,

Speaker 2  32:32
yeah. Okay, well, so they

Unknown Speaker  32:35
have a presentation if you want to run through that. I think we should, yeah, that way, if they want to leave they can. No, it's up to you.

Speaker 7  32:55
We're working out of our subject City office, and actually, I our part of the project jump forward a little bit. Our part of the project is built on part of something that I'm actually really passionate about, which is brownfields and basically the opportunities to do things that are positive this we like to kind of start when we have the opportunity to work with the community. Put this up because our group, our planning listing architecture group, a couple years ago, had a chance to as we were talking about why we do, we felt it was important for us to really put that in a statement, like you have your mission statement, to have what we call our just cause, something that was meaningful to us and motivated us. And so this is our just cause, but I bring it up because, you know, recognizing we're guests and we're here to work with you to do things that are positive. So in our just cause, creating a world where all people can thrive in so affirming environments through meaningful connection with one another, and recognizing that, you know, our goals as planners, as lesbian architects, is to work with the environment and the way people interact with it possible and ways to bring people together and make those interactions. So why I talk about brownfields is such an important thing is everybody here somewhat familiar with the term? I generally assume people weird term, it doesn't explain itself. So brownfield is a term used by the Environmental potential property that has the potential for contamination perception. It doesn't mean it is contaminated. It just means that there is some potential for it, either because of past history or some old condition on the site that makes that the additional part of that is that it makes it so that property is a difficult property to develop or bring back. So when we look at brownfields, looking at properties that could be, for example, the vacant or bad in property where there's some suspicion that something happened in the past that could be keeping people interested in buying it. Old. Regular sites where chemicals were used are often considered rapid sites. We want to make sure that there's soil former gas stations regulated. Concerned about what might be in that location. There's a lot of other things. So when we do our brownfield work, a lot of the work is built around, ultimately, not just doing the assessment, but it's understanding. We want the properties to come back into productivity. We want them to be a benefit and this is a great example so property,

Unknown Speaker  36:11
and it's now so great example of what the downfield

Speaker 7  36:17
programs that are challenging and do taking through the steps necessary. So this little graphic is the process that we go through in our projects, where there's different parts of it and there's on the front end environment. So somebody had a property that they were interested in finding out if it could participate in the program. The first part of that is process. We would take the information and take it to the EPA and do an eligibility assessment on it to confirm if it was eligible for the program that could have things to do with, you know, whether or not the ownership there's questions about, you know, things that might happen with that particular property. If you are as a city, buying a piece of property, it is always highly recommended, if not outside Central, then we go through an assessment on that property before you purchase it, make it eligible for the program. Yeah. So a lot of the property, you've been doing a lot of this, this grant that we're working with since 2022, and so properties this year, you know, just in the future, there was forever, some reason you're looking at a property, you're saying we would be interested in buying that as a city for some city purpose. One of the first steps before that purchase happened would be do a phase one assessment on it to be able to get that either clean, be able to help keep your purpose nothing concerning, or identify if there are other steps needed, and that would be some of the banks and others would be interested in seeing that if, for whatever reason, there was something there that would make it eligible with city purchase to also get additional Funding for cleanup. If there was something to do that, so as you go through the steps, and you go, like, identified, a few more different assessments, first off, identifying there's records or history debates, so there's potential contamination, we may identify one of those. Then go back. Phase two, do sampling, test soil let's say there's contamination in the soil, if there's asbestos, lead, paint, those sorts of things. And then once those fit through the process to be either cleared and confirmed with their weight or prepared for cleanup activities, we also start to do our groundwork planning, and that is what we do to prep the sites, to start looking at suitable activities that could be done on those properties. That's where Haley and I've been so Haley Wallace, another planner, presented with me. So our project is it's not the exact same as the Broadway road project, but we're working collaboratively with them, because it's important to recognize that they're doing work within like streetscape, looking at beautification infrastructure, and we don't want to just repeat what they're doing. So we've been talking with Arcadis, you know, getting like you, going through Edward to get updates when these are available, and just making sure that we're working hand in gloves, we understand what they're proposing, looking to hear what you're saying back to them, so that we're aware of that. So as we look at our properties that are adjacent to that corridor, we already know what's at least proposal was being so that we're, you know, helping kind of keep all of those United without repeating work. So our study area, little pig won't actually show up on there, but if you look at it, see where Main Street goes through. Is the yellow line on the aerial map, and then that kind of cluster of red you can see on there. Those are sites that have been assessed to some level. So we have multiple cluster brownfield sites, and they include, for example. So, for example, you know, this is this mark. This is Main Street. Here's Broadway. And so you are probably familiar with raised tavern here, the harbon campus, the old gas station site. This is the old Texaco gas station. This is the captain's pizza, I believe now the old bank site is here, the State Health Services buildings there, that's one of them, and then these empty lots adjacent to it. There's this narrow parcel between the two properties north of the bank, bank and parcel up here, just off of 10th north, or first north. That's kind of the main cluster here. Then just north of this is at the center building here, just Amtrak. Then the vacant property. In those cases, property owner agreed to have an assessment. Probably any of them that already read, I don't know that we've approached people and they just said no, but they aren't part of the program. So, you know, there's always this particular grant. We are actually winding down at this point. It's going to end in September. We jump to our schedule. It shows that. So the grant funding expires at the end of September. And so if there were other additional assessments that would be something that would need to be ideal to expedite that and bring those words, to have those brought forward go through the eligibility assessments and be able to do the assessments. We've got a number of phase two assessments sites. There's still assessment activity

Speaker 2  42:00
taken. So the red parcels have been surveyed. Did they identify problems in those in those particular areas or so?

Speaker 7  42:19
Right now, there's these different stages at this point. So some of them have had what you call a rat or recognized environmental condition. That doesn't mean it doesn't mean there's contamination, it means there's something needed to be evaluated further. And so some of them, like the bank building, it's not that there's an issue, but we put in a phase two request to sampling program, plus the EPA, to kind of evaluate that, because during the phase one, they identified some of the potential history that applies, that might be attained underneath it, for example, and some things that might be worth investigating and just clearing that. So there's a few of them that are in that status? Yes, I

Speaker 8  43:02
just look up our stats right here, and of the 17 sort of properties that have been assessed, seven of those have come back as a negative, no, environmental condition. Others are in the next process. Either they had a phase two assessment completed, or, as John mentioned, the EPA is still in the process of approving that phase two report. Not even, well, there are Yeah. So I said seven of those, 17 are clean. 10 have environmental conditions that are recognized, including things like asbestos, yeah.

Speaker 3  43:40
So I know where the old Chevron station was. I thought this

Speaker 8  43:49
is only the Brownfield sites within our corridor, our focus area, we have additional sites.

Speaker 7  44:01
Yeah, something on the gas station. That

Unknown Speaker  44:19
the former Broadway 66

Unknown Speaker  44:21
station, no our

Speaker 8  44:26
environmental colleagues just updated this last night for us, so there's still some that may not show up on our as well as those two former gas

Unknown Speaker  44:37
I want to say they were part of it, but I don't recall you. Like, maybe this

Unknown Speaker  44:43
particular map, yeah,

Unknown Speaker  44:45
it was, like, done at a different stage, and this

Speaker 8  44:47
was, yeah, so I would say that I think this particular graphic was mid November, put together so it could be outdated

Speaker 3  44:58
and they have additional so this is where the former station is another gas station. So those four corners are all well, these three are gas stations.

Speaker 1  45:18
No no

Unknown Speaker  45:22
car I'm

Speaker 3  45:33
pretty sure, of setting 17 properties, right, and they were mostly

Speaker 2  45:43
good. The map. They're they're all west of the hell.

Speaker 7  45:48
Oh no, just, this is just right. So this is our study area for the planning. They're done. Okay, perfect, excellent. So also, so we'll make sure that you know. So again, when we're doing a disappointing process is coming up to the schedule. We're early in this process right now. In step three today is actually this Open House this afternoon.

Speaker 7  46:31
So this is where we are in process. Up until this point, we been doing public information.

Unknown Speaker  46:38
We're here in December.

Speaker 7  46:40
I online survey information the night of yesterday, evening we were here just before the Charette just

Unknown Speaker  46:53
to have one more opportunity. Okay?

Speaker 7  47:09
But so there's the gut walk through the steps, and so with the goal tonight, we're going to be presenting to you some of what we've heard from the community, and also some of the work we've done today and where we are going. As we leave the meeting today, we'll be entering our alternative development portion process where we're looking at the sites, we're looking at the ordinances, the underlying environmental conditions, potential funding opportunities and mining funding stacks with potential uses, and coming up with generating concepts that can be used to both approach the property owners and alignment the property owners with their vision for the properties they're also aligned with with what the city's goals are. So widening it with programs you have process and also considering to help motivate or provide incentives to the property owners to do reasons that they're, you know, maybe hesitant. So we're as we're moving forward with this will then be coming back formally in April, aligning with the green river rocks to bring those concepts forward, to get more input on those basically, by

Speaker 7  48:33
using changes made, we'll then go through our refinement process. And basically, as we're going into April through July, we'll be refining and finalizing so that we'll be doing their final presentations, ideally, the way we prefer, I mean, I prefer they do it is to come to you, take your final buy and then find that with city council. I know you guys are a little bit reversed, but you can counsel the second week and find a commission the third week. So we have to hit you guys first and then the next month go to council, make that work. So we're going to be to be kind of expeditious here in July, August, presentations, but you can kind of see where we are here in the next few months to get that information on our website, where people can also provide confidence.

Speaker 7  49:46
So if you have any questions about the schedule, so I can so I'd say it's like tomorrow, like what we're trying to do is help create within our focus area, a pathway or roadmap for these brownfield properties.

Speaker 7  50:12
Yeah, so, so the cleanup grant, you know, there's grants opportunities, you know, start to align with, you know, what the potential ownership is? You know, there's always limitations with a lot of private owners internships. So that would be part of the conversations. What are the pathways to clean up advantageous, regular state programs?

Unknown Speaker  50:39
The variance would be available.

Speaker 7  50:47
So grant funding so federal cleanup grants, they

Unknown Speaker  51:02
disclose for applications.

Speaker 7  51:07
Slowed down the shutdown. They usually they reopen the entity, different time frames. I believe we just closed. I think we just closed the data was

Speaker 7  51:27
so as of right now, I don't think we've had conversation about property. So we're kind of like again right now, part of the, part of the goals is to work with these, these concepts and we're working through is we, Kate and I, were talking about the ideas of seeking some one on one phone conversations with property owners about what their potential plans are. You know, going through it for that, but identifying what the best outreach are for the property owners will understand their their interest and stands. And then also, there are opportunities for identifying what they could potentially do for the cleanup process as well. But like we said, some of our fair number of them are currently in different stages of final like the testing for the ones that are still tax that

Speaker 3  52:24
were identified. Have you had anybody come forward that wants to do something there?

Speaker 7  52:37
But part of the goal for this, and I think that's this kind of comes to your gladly. The first question you asked me was often, I think, you know, one of the goals of our planning is to just educate and help people understand where the opportunities are the benefits are, both as a property owner and how that can have positive benefits to the community, and sometimes that can try to put that roadmap, it can sometimes encourage them to consider ways of divesting themselves to the property, if it sends up being more of their interest to do so, or see whether there's different tax credits that will be available for historic property preservation and redevelopment They can be aligned with other types of development funds, or if there's a bigger interest, where they do better reasons, where you can then just start to see other opportunities that can be given to municipalities that's a better option. So one of the outcomes of the process that we go through is helping identify what's the roadmap forward?

Speaker 2  53:53
So let's make up a scenario, yeah, and so the bank building. If it was declared historical building, would that make additional funds available for renovation and cleanup of that area that would not be available

Speaker 7  54:15
to the private property owner or so there's well, there wouldn't be available to private property owner as well, but there are 25 so the flags are preserving 25% of an historic building renovation, and there are requirements for that to be eligible. You can get eligibility for historic preservation tax credits. It would be one particular piece of that particular scenario. So the preservation of a historic building is incentivized pretty often through tax credits, but that's available through property house project

Unknown Speaker  55:00
idea, yeah,

Unknown Speaker  55:08
at this point it's pretty much dead. Well,

Unknown Speaker  55:11
not sure. I'm not interested right now.

Speaker 5  55:18
Can you revive? Yeah, absolutely, he did get disappointed in the way that he was treated by property owners around him, the way he was treated by some county commissioners. So that's kind of where he's at. I would say, unofficially,

Unknown Speaker  55:46
wonderful idea,

Unknown Speaker  55:48
and they were young already to help, and

Unknown Speaker  55:52
that would have been one

Unknown Speaker  55:59
property owner. There

Speaker 5  56:04
has hired a general manager now because he's on ambition to handle everything through his businessman. I mean, he was, he was Noel's manager in the previous business, and Noel's hired him back. He's big reason why Noel is where he is. So I think if you get Doug interested, yeah,

Unknown Speaker  56:28
there's a possibility

Speaker 1  56:33
they've been a part of the Brownfield items for a long time, but it seems like we've already done we've selected the buildings. They've done their first analysis and maybe potentially their second one. But we're now, we're kind of on a third step of planning, and what we would like to see of that area, if we could repurpose it right, is that kind of understanding, yeah.

Speaker 7  56:52
So we are within this focus area now, moving into an additional phase doesn't need the assessments are done, yeah, but you know, with the grant inspiring in September, we're running out of time to be able to do that. Well, this last step that we're looking at to set the stage for the next piece to come after the grant, so to speak.

Unknown Speaker  57:14
Yeah, we're running concurrently right now.

Speaker 7  57:18
So with that, I mean, just with that in mind. So David is going to talk through some of the things we've heard from the community so far.

Speaker 8  57:27
So I think these are not necessarily new concerns. One of the things we found with talking to our residents is you have wonderful residents who care a lot, but they expressed a lot of fatigue about planning and giving their opinion about things that they don't necessarily see implemented. So some of the concerns that came to the top, and because you have an educated citizenry, know the issues and sort of the problems to redevelopment, they express concerns about attracting time, paying jobs, and creating the tax base to support any improvements, instead of just, you know, dreaming big and having no money to actually implement things, which I found to be very, you know, grounded and based in reality, right? They were also very concerned about the burden on the city staff. They spoke very highly of your city, and said they're wearing many hats and they didn't want to overburden any of the city with really intensive or high maintenance ideas that would make their job even harder. They also expressed a lot of frustration with some of the current property owners who are just unwilling or waiting for somebody else to come in to offer them a big paycheck or or somebody else to start the improvements. So that was a frustration that we heard a lot of times, that people are unwilling to either improve their properties or to sell it to somebody who is putting they also talked about how the agriculture is a good part of your history, but we have many aging farmers who don't necessarily have kids or succession plans in place to carry on that legacy, and so that is something that is in danger of going away. They talked about not wanting to waste money along with that, that tax base, and being very mindful of the cost of improvements, and wanting to stay based in reality right there, and they wanted to be self sustaining, I got questions about, oh, how are you funding this? Are you getting grants? And what happens when the grant money runs out? Which I found very refreshing. They also expressed the idea that they don't want to become Moab just the traffic, and they want to keep the small town feel and not be overrun, while still welcoming in tourists and allowing them to have a base camp here for the wonderful assets that the community offers. They also talked about creating that that future for that next generation, once again, time that back to that high paying jobs, what sort of industries can we attract that will sustain the next generation and allow them to have a future where they can stay in the community that they love? And like I mentioned that community fatigue, a lot of people came up to me and said they were willing to put in the time, the hours to volunteer attend things. And you know, we have some great citizens, like Dana over here who attended every single outreach event that we put on throughout this entire process. They really, really care. And I think a lot of them really, really care, and they feel isolated and alone a lot of the times, because they feel like they care, but nobody else does. And I found that that maybe isn't true, but there could be some more community support coming together. And then the last thing we talked about was entrepreneurship opportunities. Lots of people had wonderful ideas about little things they could do, cottage industries that they could start. But one of the common denominators was there's just not funds or capital available to start that off, or they weren't in a position to sort of leverage assets to get that going and started. So they talked about any sort of support in that arena would be very welcome and sort of help get the ball rolling, so to speak. So one of the questions you've seen on over here you were talking about, one of the problems that was identified earlier is that, you know, ever since I 70 has come in, you've been by test, right? And even with the business loop, there's maybe limited understanding about how that works. For the younger generations. They don't understand the concept of a business loop, and then you can just go through town and immediately get back on. You don't have to do big detours or anything. And so some of the ideas that were mentioned is having more frequent festivals, you've got melon days, you've got outlaw days. Another things that were mentioned is embracing rather large Latino population and cultural celebrations. If they had dances or heritage days, that might be something that could be a bit of a regional rock to also supplement green river rocks and melon days and outlaw days. They also talked about possibly inviting in other sports teams in your slower seasons, maybe the spring or fall, when you're not as busy and you've seen a couple of competitions as more of a regional drum. And then there was also floated the idea about agro tourism or eco forest that you have both, you know, wonderful outdoor recreation assets, the river, the book, cliffs, all the scenic beauty here, as well as the agricultural heritage. So that is something that is it has an audience in sort of the millennial generations, or they really like that glam being and pay to camp experiences was mentioned once again. The EV questions come up. You have several EV charging stations are out there, but getting the word out on, hey, okay, you parked here. So where do you go now, while you're killing time, right then, just enhancing your river trail system, it's a wonderful community asset. I know there's some issues with ownership and what that alignment might look like, but that was a universally popular idea, that getting people to the river and letting them enjoy it would be a wonderful thing for the community, especially for visitors. There's a lot of mention about jogging trails and create very safe, legible loops where people know where to go and can easily navigate that. So other ideas that were mentioned. There was a president mentioned in Lima Peru actually for a splash park that had a very low entry fee. It wasn't free, but it was quite elaborate, but it would allow people to enjoy water. It wouldn't need, you know, lifeguards and something more intensive, like a water park, but just a splash park where they had fountains and fogs and misters and all sorts of they have, like, light shows and that sort of thing. So finding some sort of version of that that scales to your community, and offering that as a regional draw, especially for visitors who are shopping, maybe they're charging their EV station, they're letting the kids get out and work out their windows, and this would be a nice draw there. And then one of the ideas that was also floated was recreating the local pictographs for those in the accessibility community, right? There's lots of people who will never be able to hike up to Seco canyon or the swell, and just recreating that experience so that they can also be included in that. And then just the general idea of creating Green River as a base camp. It's a little bit quieter than Moab, you maybe would still allow something like trails specifically for ATVs and other recreational vehicles, while keeping them off your road and planning sort of courses from hotels and other amenities to trails on the outskirts of town without sort of disrupting sort of downtown. So that idea that the freeway has sort of bypassed Green River led us to that idea of discussing, okay, how do we bring people in, and what sort of sort of physical bread or problems could help tease people into exploring Downtown a little bit more? And these were some of the ideas that were were given. So you have your Green River sign on one end, and you've got like a little Spanish Trail, and you're welcome to Green River painted sign. But are there other things, especially upon on the love end, you know, there's not good visibility back into town, whereas on the other end, you're on a little bit of more of a hill, and you can see that there's Green River to explore, and potentially places to eat and rest there. So frequently was mentioned. Welcome to Green River signs and making sure that they were properly lighted. That you have some signs that used to say that, but now they're county advertisements and still wanting something that mentioned either melon days or Green River, that there was a downtown to explore on those bookends, another one that was mentioned as a president in Argentina was having more public art sculptures on every corner, just to have people be drawn into that. You know, public art is big with most crowds, but especially like the Instagram crowd, anything that is a photo op. It just drives them, draws them like beats time and then, once again, like I said, people don't necessarily understand that business loop concept. So working that out on a sign, you know, easy access back on and you X amount of miles or drive right through, get back on something that makes it a little bit more clear to the general population, if they're not familiar with that concept,

Speaker 8  1:07:28
then we have a couple bigger, Wilder ideas. So we had the suggestion that you paint the hillsides with some big public art, or painting the railroad bridge with some murals, right? So something that's very eye catching and that could advertise some of the attractions that green armor offers. So other suggestions were to add additional sculptures to monument Hill light art, so something that's a little bit more attractive at night invisible there, and then advertising local businesses as you go along. So if you get to loves teasing that there's, you know, the tamarisk or raise or the chow round, you know. So those were some of the breadcrumb I desired. And then we also asked people, what was the most authentic Green River? Because, like John mentioned, we're guests in your community. We want it to be something that resonates with your residents. So some of the questions we asked, we asked, we sort of had these present images in a couple different categories, just to give people a sounding board to see what resonated with them. And some of the things that I heard over and over again is to lean into the history, right? You have a rich history going back, you know, pioneer days, and really celebrating that, whether that's the river running or the ferries or the melons or the old bridges or their trains, there's lots to choose from, right there, celebrating agriculture, right obviously, you have your big mountain days, and that's already a big part of your identity, and that resonated with a lot of people. And then, once again, making river, the river more accessible, so extending that trail, providing lookouts and shade structures. So as mentioned, especially during the hottest part of the day, shade is essential to actually using the trails and wanting to be out there. There was mention of enhancing the crystal geyser. So apparently, back in the day, there was like an ice cream shop out there, and it was a little bit more of a destination. So is that providing a picnic Brazilian or just better access, better signage, what have you there? And then there was a mention of day trips. So obviously, you have a rich history of multi day cruises along the river, the friendship cruises. But is there just a quick day trip in and out that visitors could do if they're here for a shorter period of time, or they're not just quite as comfortable or advanced? And then another idea that was mentioned was having an amphitheater on the river, and sort of just taking advantage of not only the river, but then the VISTA up to the Book Cliffs. So once again, the scenic vistas, that was a big thing. Somebody mentioned, hey, Moab has, excuse me, scenic flight tours that they can go with their local airplanes. And our our scenery here is just as beautiful, if not better, right? So is there an opportunity for an entrepreneur to start some sort of flight? There's just eco tourism. There's lots of opportunities there with the hills, hiking, biking, you know, horses, the river, etc. And then another comment that people don't always naturally just appreciate the beauty of the desert, and so really leaning into that with our materials, as we look at revamping some of these blighted buildings, or doing these improvements, really showcasing the local materials and being true to the context, so that it doesn't feel like we're trying to duplicate someplace else, you know, back east, or, you know, up north, being true to southern

Unknown Speaker  1:11:32
so part of like just thinking,

Unknown Speaker  1:11:37
so one of the reasons we

Speaker 7  1:11:38
talked through a lot of you'll kind of notice a lot of that is not on top. It's of that is not on top. So you're kind

Speaker 3  1:11:44
of going, Okay, that's interesting Spanish Trail or on private property. The

Unknown Speaker  1:12:04
them being a small community.

Unknown Speaker  1:12:13
Are you kidding?

Unknown Speaker  1:12:19
We just talked to I like the amphitheater on

Unknown Speaker  1:12:20
the river. Idea. That's really cool there. I don't go outside.

Speaker 7  1:12:33
One of the things just maybe somewhat candid, my mother in law is Cheyenne, and we were taught, I was telling her, and we were kind of chatting about what I was doing. She goes, I didn't know Green River was. She was she was talking about it. It turned out she was talking about normal. Well, that was, she was said. And it's been kind of an interesting, I mean, to the point about not knowing the amphitheaters there, here is, honestly one of the biggest things is just tourism, like getting people the information out. Because, you know, come in and you see these bluffs, and it is the like, it's almost So Western. It's overwhelmingly Western, the Photoshop view of somebody who doesn't know what the West, right? It to somebody who doesn't know what the lesson like this is. It's almost like too, too Buster to be like, is this believable? And yet people don't like a lot of people don't know, you know. And you know, you have those opportunities in some ways, of just finding ways to get the information out like you are. Communities like to be a little bit well kept secret for the locals, and that's feasible, but, you know, there's a lot of opportunity in just finding ways to make yourself better known in what there is here to do. Because I think there's, you know, there's obviously a gap, but, but to the point, you know, like,

Unknown Speaker  1:14:24
we have 600 hotel rooms.

Speaker 1  1:14:31
I thought we were closer to 1000 but I think, I think you're right. Lonnie knows the number, I don't.

Speaker 2  1:14:38
So I mean, when I was looking at those different reports and stuff, there were more people staying in hotel rooms than there were in the city. So you know, I'm back to talk about the debate is, if you can get every one of them to spend an extra two hours in town. The economic impact would be tremendous, but they come in at 11 o'clock at night and they leave at six o'clock in the morning. So how are you capturing that or promoting the city enough so that the next time they're coming through, they will anticipate and plan to arrive earlier, at five o'clock in red evening and or noon the next day and and see something

Speaker 7  1:15:48
to that, so that actually right into this. Because, you know, again, when we're talking about all these ideas, like breadcrumbing people in from the 70, where it's hard to know what's bad here when you're driving down, and so part of the thought process, again, as well as we're looking at these properties, we want to ensure that the message that's being presented is a authentic. It's, you know, this is what you want people to perceive Green River to be, and it's not made up thing that somebody told you. But we want that message to start when somebody is driving down the freeway and they have the first scientist, yeah, when

Speaker 2  1:16:29
they leave and see next services, that's where you have to stop for your bathroom and your drink and food. The hard part

Speaker 5  1:16:41
about this is, let me go back to that we don't want to be moaning. I disagree with that notion wholeheartedly. We're never going to be Moab. We're not Moab. We're never going to be Moab. No matter what we do, we're never going to be Moabs. But we have to get over that as a community, that tourism is not a terrible thing, that it can invite good things into our community. Obviously, that wasn't one of the things he ran into, is that everybody treated him like they were trying. He was trying to turn Raider Moab and so, so we've got to get over that notion

Unknown Speaker  1:17:23
somehow. Well,

Speaker 3  1:17:25
there's a happy medium in the hostility, because then you're still going to have to have all the workers these places, and restaurant more restaurants, and then I always think about our student population is sad. You don't have that either.

Speaker 2  1:17:45
And I think that's right, is that these 600 people staying an extra two hours in town is not going to make a small app. No, it's going to make our businesses thrive enough that they can hire extra people, that they can open another restaurant in town, that they can do something productive. And I agree. I mean, my philosophy is very much that tourism is not something that supports healthy, financially stable families, but, but you increase that, you know that's that's a low hanging fruit, just to capture more people for extra two hours, and

Speaker 5  1:18:36
then also create something that might be more enticing For people to move here for industry to come here. I mean having, being somebody living a wife here from somebody that grew up in Bountiful Utah. I mean, there's nothing here for her, other than me. So, you know, you'd like to be able to attract the manager. I think the difference is that sometimes, I guess myself, but a lot of times families moving in, they're looking at opportunities for their kids. They're looking at what the mom, what can I take my case they will do in the afternoon to keep them entertained? And if there was something that was attractive to tourism, it also be attractive to the bomb. So like I said, I think we've gotten it over that.

Speaker 2  1:19:36
But I agree that it's, it's a multiple prong approach, and this is one of the industry that is going to support families, is the other part of that, because then you know, if you have someone employed in the business that is profitable and doing Well, and then, you know, a second family member or children can be employed somewhere else and

Unknown Speaker  1:20:10
make it much better,

Unknown Speaker  1:20:13
clean up and attract right?

Speaker 2  1:20:15
So that was, that was one of the things that that I caught on your other poster was the top thing. Would give it a visual solution to talk about that for a second.

Speaker 7  1:20:29
Okay, so, I mean, there's a lot of ways to kind of look at it, you know, again,

Unknown Speaker  1:20:35
part of it, you know, like, within a like, you have a

Speaker 7  1:20:42
lot of things like your side, science that are, like, there's different things that are advertising. Somebody comes in, somebody takes the pretty way off onto the State Route, comes through town. What they're seeing and what they're being advertised isn't necessarily always like, what they're going to experience, right? And so, like, if you have signs that are from businesses that are shut down, or there's signs that, like, look like a business is open, but it's not open to stop. And you have, like, a lot of this, like the visual cues that you're giving people, is it the message you want to give people to get them to do the action you want them to take? You know? And so if you have like, ordinances, for sign ordinances that can be used as an example of a way to force upkeep or to take down assignments not meeting your ordinances. You can start to use that to clean up that visual character of Main Street. There's there's aspects of it. I don't know if you've heard anything more specifically, too. Yeah.

Speaker 8  1:21:40
So billboards were specifically mentioned, you know, faded old ice doors, and then ideally, you have the most scenic vistas ever. In an ideal world, we know that there's huge cost implications in that reducing just skyline, power poles, towers, that sort of thing would would also be a nice thing in an ideal world.

Unknown Speaker  1:22:06
So I was hoping

Unknown Speaker  1:22:08
they were going to talk about dilapidated buildings.

Unknown Speaker  1:22:10
Well, that is definitely building, so it's a nicer

Speaker 2  1:22:18
Yeah, and is part of your discussion, in a

Speaker 1  1:22:29
sense, but I think it's not this phase of the Brownfield project. It'll be potentially the next phase, and a lot of these buildings that were selected for this program, or the property owners decided to become part of it. It's made it a little bit trickier, say, for me, in a code enforcement aspect, to be like, Hey, we now have information on your property. Now clean it up. So we're moving slowly through a lot of these portions, or these properties that we have been a part of the program to then later on, find monetary or money ways to clean those up,

Unknown Speaker  1:23:06
parent, contrast, maybe like, like, nearby examples, say, The gas station that is part of a program. See,

Speaker 2  1:23:18
building so it wasn't there wasn't a survey done to see if there was again to do.

Unknown Speaker  1:23:51
So we can, we can't just go on. So this owner,

Speaker 7  1:24:01
it. So that's just an example, but the idea is that, you know, part of it is, you know, steps in the process. We identify what to do with what could be done with these properties, and using that as a stepping stone. You know, part of the understanding this is phrase that we use, to some extent, and it came to be actually from a developer in another community in the browser program, where this developer was a person who had some money, and he came in and he had an old mill site In this particular community that they want to turn into housing. They turn it into apartments effectively. And everybody was telling him, you'll never be able to do it. It's not going to be possible. Buildings got challenges, and nothing like that happens in this town. And even if you build it, he's there, right? And everybody, there's lots of hit. And he came in and he got it turned out, he was able to qualify for the historic preservation tax credits, and he's able to get the funding stack in place to start to make it feasible. And basically, with some perseverance and willingness to do something and bring the capital, but also having other resources, the grants, the tax credits, was able to do something that, what he then pointed out was, like, after he did that, lots of problems, and he's like, you know, what this community needed was somebody to step off the curve, because everybody was too scared to be the ones to step out there, and so once somebody stepped off the curb and crossed the street, all of a sudden it was like, oh, there is no so that's part of the thought process. To your point about making buildings is we don't we're not going to have a silver bullet that fixes all of them at once. But the goal is to get the visions in place, get the momentum going, get those steps off the curve, and get people seeing that it's safe across the street, so to speak. That's a much better way than I thought it thank you. Done this before, so that's the idea here. So this was part of our exercise today, and you're going to see a little bit of the sauce. So as we were here, we were talking to people in between, when people were here sitting, we were kind of taking a jump on starting to kind of think about ideas. And so we were concentrating to some extent, here on the Broadway and main intersection. And just as an example of some of the process we were going through, we looked at one where we're like, Okay, right now we've got Ray's tavern, and Ray's tavern eat there every day. And you know, it's doing business and things are happening there, so raises kind of business. And so there's something already happening there, and it's been assessed. And then the art of this cafe is problem, and then the gas station site, that's a really high value area. It's pretty visible. It's high value. And as mentioned, you know, last week, I guess you guys will talk about it here after us. You know, there are some ideas that were presented about what to do with Broadway in Maine, and a number of the concepts that were presented and suggested different ideas, like process spaces and things like that. Right now, one of the things that we heard in our outreach events is we also heard people talking about, you know, having this idea of, like, really cool ideas about small business startups. Do food truck, capture some of the business when the tourists were here, selling cookies or having other things. There's a lot of like, that kind of small entrepreneurial spirit. So we started, like, kind of looking at ideas. We started discussing, well, what about if this could become a positive spaces around we started throwing out this idea well, like, what if we had an incubator, like a shops, and the idea behind it being like, maybe someplace that people can rent space beyond consignment in these like areas where people can sell goods that are put in the space of this

Unknown Speaker  1:28:46
kind of urban entry area like pike In Seattle, yeah.

Unknown Speaker  1:28:53
So okay,

Speaker 7  1:28:58
so we got the show. There it is. We were discussing it because we're like, Well, okay, so we've got this building here, the old gas station. The bones of it are structured there. What if we, like, took out the doors, windows, cleaned it up, put in like, glass storefronts, looked at maybe expanding the building out, storefront shop we had, like, maybe it's like, live inside. This helps that Plaza space certain feel like a nice place to visit, you know, and because it's providing an opportunity to support local entrepreneurs that they can get something going, there's like, stories, you know, there's a lot of examples in the United States of, like, a lady, for example, who started doing quilting, started selling the quilts online, got really, really famous, and all of a sudden people would start coming to that town, like, look up, do the Learn quilting from her. Became a business that she was hiring people next thing you know, they've got like two dozen people, like, working for her ideas are there to give, like, some of that support so that somebody doesn't come up with an idea and have to go buy a property and build A store. So you kind of start looking at ideas that are really supportive and foster those businesses, and then the people did something successful. So then kind of looking at having some screen, fire, living, little miserable visit. We take that closet space, like recycled green glass so they have, like a glowing


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